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Post by sharlin on Aug 16, 2007 5:43:01 GMT -5
I think that if the one goal is to get more people into Kara then more work needs to be done making sure they do.
There is little to no communication as to who is needed... it seems to be a small clique that is doing this. There doesn't even seem to be a plan involved. Which of course leads to the very disaster ya'll got last week.
While I understand that any players who want to participate need to put forth the effort the guild officers need to put forward even more. That requires organization and a plan.
Specifically.
1. Filling the roles required, to include specs within certain classes. 2. Making sure people are equipped properly, if not how to fix it. 3. Itemizing what we have in the way of available trade skills. 4. Know how many of each class we have and which ones don't conflict because they are all on the same account (for the multi level 70 player people like myself) 5. Isolating the vent or skype server for raid purposes 6. Ensuring a standard for plug ins across all raiders. 7. Ensuring a standard load out on pots/etc for all raiders.
Haphazrd planning will not lead to a good end.
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Post by wyo on Aug 16, 2007 9:30:44 GMT -5
From my side, I really hope that one of the main goals of this guild is NOT to raid and get people into Kara.
However, that being said, I think that last weeks was run totaly for a learning experience. It was never ment to be a success. We were never ment to get very far or get and awsome loot. It was just to poke our head in, learn, and have fun playing within the guild. Did we wipe more then we should have? yea. Were the repair bills higher then expected? yea. Is that OK? I think so.
There is just a small group doing this so far I would agree. For the most part it is the people that have gotten keyed for Kara and those who sigend up on the forums. Everyone out there knows what it takes to get keyed. That was/is/should be the only requirement to go. We had a hard time finding the last two people for the run last week and ran with just 9 for about an hour. I know people hate to PUG to get things done, but this guild isn't large enough to make sure that never has to happen. I hate PUGs just as much as the next person but I have had to do them to get keyed and I would expect others to do the same.
I do agree with you on many points above, that if we want to be successful in running Kara we need to work harder at it and be much more selective in who we take to it, like you say in #1 and #2. But again we are not a large enough guild to do that. idealy we would have two priests in there healing, we just don't have that at this time. All of your points are right on if we want to do Kara, and do it well.
Finally, in my opinion, Kara is a VERY VERY dangerous place. Not from how hard it is, how much work it takes to get preped, etc. But from the fact of how it splinters a guild. I saw a guild COMPLETLY disband. JUST OVER KARA!! It was from alot of the issues that have been expressed over the last week on the forums from the Lifers. Be VERY carful with Kara. Know why you want to run it, what the guild is willing to do, and what to expect from it. It can be a fun way to get 10 people together. There aren't many 10 man instances any more that we can do that are a challenge. Until Zul'Amen comes out, if we want to run a group of 10 people thru anything we are not left with many choices. If we don't learn from Kara However, if Kara is going to cause strife, make people get upset, or put any unneeded stress on any guild members officer or not, I would really rather see us not ever go back to Kara. That would be a waste of some game content, and I am sure that some people would like to see it ( I would like to see the chess event). But rather that, then have a guild break up or have lots of good people leave.
Well enough I guess from me. I hope I don't offend anyone with anything that I said, that was not my intention. Kara just worries me.
--Wyo
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Post by Rach on Aug 16, 2007 9:59:44 GMT -5
I have to agree with Wyo in that it was all a learning experience. To be honest, I think it's a pain in the arse to get keyed. I mean you have to have a flying mount for one of the key fragments for a place that doesn't require a flying mount. Pretty silly to me.
We have said all along that we are not a raiding guild. That being said, I don't think Kara should be a top priority in the guild. If folks wanna try it out that's ok, but it shouldn't be the most important thing. The most important thing is to take care of our families and RL issues that we have.
I know that several of us are waiting for Zul'Aman and I think that will be the instance we will focus on instead of kara.
Just my 2 cents.
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Post by ferrion on Aug 16, 2007 12:55:45 GMT -5
My comments: Do we think that ZA will be easier then Kara? I don't know if that is correct, especially since it seems like some of the quality of the items that will drop will depend on the speed of how fast you do it. The Kara attunement quests in my opinion aren't that hard (I think having a flying mount is in general good to have) and part of going to some of the instances is to just gear up in general. The entire point of the first boss in Kara is to see if you have the proper coordination and enough gear to run that 25 minute gauntlet in order to take out that boss. We learned quite a bit (to help on the coordination side) and the next thing I think we need is to look at who wants to start running it seriously - once you have it wired it will be easier to bring other people along but I personally agree with some of Sharlin's comments (like Wyo's 1 and 2). Maybe the start is some number of people who want to focus on that and they get first shot at positions because group makeup and spec does matter especially during the learning process. I guess that I would divide it this way: We're a casual guild which is a good thing - I don't want to be graded on raid attendance, etc., but Kara isn't a casual thing so if people really do want to do it, they have to make a bit more of a commitment to doing it. That being said, more people will be able to fill out roles as more people know what the instance is like, know how the fights go, get better gear, etc. As for gearing people up - I think that's a great idea. Instances are great ways to do that. For me I've been either doing instances or farming or looking for mats for some of the great crafted gear out there. Great places to look (to see what gear you have/might want) www.wow-loot.com/www.wowhead.com (look for armor, by type, by level, etc.)
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Post by underhill on Aug 16, 2007 13:11:06 GMT -5
As one of the people at the raid, I can say that a lot was learned, as Wyo pointed out. While the guild is not raid-centric, Kara is not really a "raid" in the sense that I think if the term (u.e., MC/BWL/AQ20/AQ40).
Kara is a more along the lines of a heroic 10-man, and as such, I think its a great opportunity to see more content and actually get loot upgrades. For those of us that run instances nearly every night, nothing short of Kara gear is an upgrade, and is the next step in progression.
As Ferrion pointed out, I think waiting for the next 10-man and skipping Kara will be rough in the extreme. From all I have read, its difficulty will be higher than Kara, especially the timed portion of it. If we are not able to even break into Kara, then there will not really be a point in going for an even harder instance.
My feeling on Kara is that those who want to come are all welcome. However, preference for spots should go to proper class mixture first, then within the class needs, those with proper (and by proper I mean PVE) specs should get priority. Lastly, Kara is in large part a gear check, and minimum gear levels should be attained (if you are sporting 0 +hit, you will have ~14% miss/resists on any and all bosses).
I am a little confused about why people are hesitant about some members beginning to work on progression content like Kara. As long as attendance is not mandatory, then it affects others not at all.
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Post by Rach on Aug 16, 2007 13:42:19 GMT -5
I really don't agree with a lot of what you said Underhill because I don't believe people should be certain spec in order to go to an instance or have certain gear. The point of this game for most people is to have fun, and if we get too serious about little issues like that then we will be missing out on that point.
This is why I hate raiding. I don't want to change my spec or gear just cause someone who doesn't even play my character tells me I should be this or that. I wanna play the game how I wanna play it.
As far as Zul goes, I think y'all are underestimating us a bit. We did ZG just fine (granted it took time just like everything else). I'm not saying ZA won't be a challenge of course it will, but I think we will enjoy it more because more people will be able to do it.
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Post by ferrion on Aug 16, 2007 13:58:03 GMT -5
I think it's important to note that no one is being "made" to raid. If you don't want to change your spec and you don't want to raid, then no problem, don't do it. That being said, there's a reason that some groups just don't work. I'm sure everyone has been in a standard five man instance where after the third or fourth wipe in the first group of pulls someone just says "you know, this group makeup isn't working, let's just call it". Nothing wrong with that, sometimes it just works that way and I don't think Kara is any exception. Sometimes when there are 4 people in a group in the LFG channel, they are specifically looking for a type of class to make sure that there run goes smoothly. Again, not a bad thing, just the reality that 4 warriors and a rogue aren't a good group makeup for an instance. From my perspective it will be a lot easier to be "casual" with Kara once more people know the fights, have succeeded, have progressed in gear, etc.
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Post by Darthpig on Aug 16, 2007 14:10:14 GMT -5
Last night i ran kara with a pug. we downed first boss in 20 mins and were at the 2nd boss in 15 mins then the group disbanded due to dc's. The group makeup was 1 holy pally, 3 mages, 1 druid tank, 1 prot tank, resto shammy, holy priest, 2 hunters. this make up was good and there was really no need for cc because tanks did the pulling and kept all aggro on them while rest of group stayed back and dps'd. I think the prob we had was that these npcs have a giant aggro range and that to many people were up front with tanks and that was the biggest prob. I think we have the right set up for this but we need MT pulling with the OT standing by. I think the next time we do run we just need to slow down and let the tanks establish aggro then open up. I know the first part is timed but with the same tactic on all groups we should be able to do this. As for the boss He was really easy just tank and spank really. I will be on that night but cannot go due to that im saved there now because we downed first boss, but i can give some advice from my experience there to help our guild find our niche to beating that place.
Erick (Darthpig and Brisham)
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Post by Rach on Aug 16, 2007 14:49:36 GMT -5
I think it's important to note that no one is being "made" to raid. If you don't want to change your spec and you don't want to raid, then no problem, don't do it. That being said, there's a reason that some groups just don't work. I'm sure everyone has been in a standard five man instance where after the third or fourth wipe in the first group of pulls someone just says "you know, this group makeup isn't working, let's just call it". Nothing wrong with that, sometimes it just works that way and I don't think Kara is any exception. Sometimes when there are 4 people in a group in the LFG channel, they are specifically looking for a type of class to make sure that there run goes smoothly. Again, not a bad thing, just the reality that 4 warriors and a rogue aren't a good group makeup for an instance. From my perspective it will be a lot easier to be "casual" with Kara once more people know the fights, have succeeded, have progressed in gear, etc. I wasn't trying to be a b1tch or anything. I just wanted to make a point to Underhill that people aren't gonna change their spec/gear cause someone tells them to. You are right; since I do not like raiding, I don't raid. That is why I hardly ever volunteer to go on an instance run. I can PvP all day and be just as happy. You are also right that you have to have a certain makeup in almost every instance. For example, a healer and a tank is necessary in every instance (with the exception being a 70 running a lowbie instance of course). I may go on more instance runs with my shaman; I don't know yet. Her survivability is a lot better than a priest. One thing that won't change when she hits 70 though is I won't stop PvPing.
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Post by underhill on Aug 16, 2007 15:23:08 GMT -5
As Ferrion says, no is being told they have to come to a raid, or even if they come, they must be a certain spec.
Darth laid it out nicely, about a solid mixture of classes and tactics can blow through the content. This should be the focus of our next attempt (for those that want to come, no one is making anyone come).
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Post by corey Robertson on Aug 16, 2007 15:23:57 GMT -5
I can see some of this getting alittle heated up so here is my 2 cents well maybe 5.
Nobody will respec unless they feel if they want to. If our tanks want to stay arms/prot then thats cool. If are priests want to stay shadow then thats cool. If our druids want to stay feral then thats cool. If our mages want to stay fire then thats cool. All this means is people want to have fun in a instance with the spec they enjoy the most. Will I be biased to them and not allow them in my runs? no. Will we have a problem sometimes on the makeup? yes. What will we do? we will work d**n hard to beat some b1tches.
Kara is a nice 10 man dungeon that has a pain in the ass attument to get keyed. Alot of us want to try it out and right now it looks like we may. Only requirement I think we need for kara is 2 to 3 tanks, and 2 to 3 healers and rest DPS. Give me that make up on the start up and I guarentee we will do some good.
If back in the day I could lead 6 warriors 3 healers and a mixture of others to beat snake boss in ZG down then I know I can do the same anywhere.
We just need to find a day that is good for people that can get away from RL for a couple hours and go from there. Also some of the PVP gear and arena gear is better then kara and Tier 4 and 5 stuff and can be used to ones advantage in these dungeons.
Have alot of love for the ones we have played with for years and not let a game and loot divide our style as a Lifer. We are casual, we are RL oriented, we like to have fun, we raid when we can.
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Post by sharlin on Aug 16, 2007 16:31:39 GMT -5
Please note I wasn't suggesting we focus on Kara. I am saying we need to focus more on getting everyone to have the ability to go wherever the guild seems to go.
this implies getting people understanding that if they want to "raid" or instance that there are certain things that just happen because of it.
Right now I find myself running many others through instances on alts and the like and I enjoy it. Yet at the same time too much of the instance runs going on are not in line with the time I play yet on weekends finding someone to go with is nearly impossible. I get more PUGs than anything else... my druid seems to be sporting a fan club... perhaps tanks aren't everywhere though I expected them to be.
Yet at the same time I don't know what my goal in the guild should be? I would like to participate more and have many many options by which I can fill a role, hell I have 3 70s and have two more at 68 yet what purpose do they fill if I don't know whats missing?
I do plan on making Achika (my druid) my main. She is going to replace Sharlin who I will probably keep on farm mode. Elle will always be available for CC/DPS but Achika will be my focus
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Post by corey Robertson on Aug 16, 2007 16:47:18 GMT -5
What spec is your druid going to be anyways?
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Post by wyo on Aug 16, 2007 17:02:21 GMT -5
Wow this thread really grew. Great points from everyone!
I too would LOVE to run Kara more. I really like to run with everyone from the lifers. I'm sorry I haven't been able to spend as much time with everyone as of late. RL has had more to it (good stuff tho). I should be able to get into more soon.
That being said, I also don't mind missing out of runs. I know a reso druid isn't always needed and that is fine.
I think that everyone has the right idea here. Everyone is saying the same thing, maybe in different ways but mostly all the same. We are a fun guild, not a raiding guild. We want to do Kara becuase we can and because it may help us later. All of this is good.
Thank you all very much for you positive input and looking at this in a good way. That is very important!
Cheers
--Wyo
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Post by corey Robertson on Aug 16, 2007 19:05:10 GMT -5
Everyone needs a resto druid noob.
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